People should also test the Bible against itself, to see if it contradicts itself. If the person finds such contradictions the person should then ask how reliable is the Bible and the person should ask how confident is he/she of the correctness of some specific claims made by parts of the Bible.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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JW's: Research your beliefs..................
by BoogerMan inw59 8/1 p. 458 par.
17-18 par.
w08 4/15 p. 6 par.
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Disillusioned JW
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JW's: Research your beliefs..................
by BoogerMan inw59 8/1 p. 458 par.
17-18 par.
w08 4/15 p. 6 par.
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Disillusioned JW
That is a great post. Many of the quotes from the WT include good advice when it comes to testing testing religious claims, but they don't go far enough. Besides testing the religious claims with the Bible, one should also test the Bible's claims with science. For some examples, one should test using science the following claims of the Bible: non-evolutionary special creationism (including the first man being made directly from dirt less than 10,000 years ago); life existing on Earth for no more than 10,000 years or no more than 49,000 years (7 times 7,000 years); that none of the stars (not including our Sun) begin their existence millions of years before our Sun; that our planet Earth really come into existence before our Sun; that plants on Earth really come into existence before our Sun began emitting sunlight and even before our Sun came into existence; there really a flood (especially a global one) of Noah's day in the past 5,000 years (with animals of all kinds being in the Ark); Hebrews being slaves in ancient Egypt and later making a mass exodus to Canaan; was Jericho destroyed when the Bible claims it was and by the means the Bible claims; is there really a personal creator God who has interacted with humans and directed human history; did the 10 plagues really happen upon ancient Egypt; does intercessory prayer really work (is there statistical evidence it works better than without intercessory prayer to heal people); was Jesus Christ actually resurrected to eternal life; is there scientific proof that demons or any other spirit beings really exist (such as proof that any spirit beings interact with humans in ways which make obvious their interactions); was there ever a time during the past 500 million years when predatory animals did not exist (for example when none of the animals living long ago killed another animal for food, or instead have scientists found skeletons of animals within the rib cages of other animals from millions of years ago); etc.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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Disillusioned JW
I am not convinced that "Revelation 11:2 specifies the length of the ‘gentile times’ as 3.5 years", however it does specify that the length of time which the nations/gentiles would trample the 'holy city' is 42 months [3.5 years]. To me "gentile times" probably means rule by gentiles, not merely the length of one siege by gentiles. Though the writer or writers of Revelation might have had only 3.5 years in mind, the writer of the gospel called Luke might have had a different length of time in mind (maybe even on of indefinite length). Some scholars (promoting the Christ myth theory), including Richard Carrier (an atheist), claim that all of the gospels were written after all of the other books of the NT were written.
Regarding when Luke was written, how can it be known that it was written before 132 CE instead of after 132 CE.? Granted a number of information sources say it was written before 100 CE (with various scholars disagreeing as to the year, though stating a year prior to 100 CE) but how can we be sure it wasn't written later? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke says "The most probable date for its composition is around AD 80–110, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century.[11]" [Update: I now think that probably was originally written before 132 CE (though probably revised later) since Marcion of Sinope used "a shorter version of the Gospel of Luke" than the common one and since Marcion "... was excommunicated by the church of Rome around 144" CE (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope ).]
I agree that there is no reason to believe that the book of Luke (nor the book of Revelation) is magical.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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Disillusioned JW
I disagree with Jeffro, in regards to what the writer of the book called "According to Luke" means by when the when "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled". For simplicity, in the rest of this post I will refer to the writer of the book as 'Luke', though the writer is actually anonymous.
Luke 21:24 (NASB) says "and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." The Roman empire took many Jews as captives and did place them into various nations which were under Roman control, but the trampling of Jerusalem by gentiles didn't permanently end in 70 CE. [Furthermore, the trampling by gentiles began when the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem.] Note that the latter part of verse 24 uses the plural word of "Gentiles" and it used it twice. The verse does not say "a Gentile nation" will trample upon Jerusalem, but rather "Gentiles" (possibly meaning multiple gentile nations). Perhaps by "Gentiles" it simply means multiple gentile individuals (such as in the composition of the Roman armies), but it also speaks the trampling continuing until the times of the Gentiles end (are "are fulfilled").
Though the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE, the trampling of Jerusalem by Gentile armies did not come to a permanent end then. Furthermore, the writer of the Gospel likely knew such, for the the gospel account was likely written well after the year 100 CE (possibly even after the Bar Kokhba revolt ended in the year 135 [or 136] CE). For example consider the following. The Jews, led by Bar Kokhba, had another revolt in Judah (after Masada fell in 71 CE to the Romans) and they temporarily liberated much of Judea (even Jerusalem) from the Romans, but the Romans armies eventually reconquered what they lost in Judea (including Jerusalem). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt . It says the following.
"Fought c. 132–136 CE,[6] it was the last of three major Jewish–Roman wars, so it is also known as the Third Jewish–Roman War or, the Third Jewish Revolt. Some historians also refer to it as the Second Revolt[7] of Judea, not counting the Kitos War (115–117 CE), which had only marginally been fought in Judea.
... Despite arrival of significant Roman reinforcements from Syria, Egypt, and Arabia, initial rebel victories established an independent state over most parts of the province for over three years, as Bar Kokhba took the title of Nasi ("head of state"). Many Jews regarded him as the Messiah, who would restore their national independence.[13]
... The Bar Kokhba revolt resulted in the extensive depopulation of the Jewish communities of Judea, more so than during the First Jewish–Roman War.[15] Some scholars describe it as a genocide.[15][16]
The Bar Kokhba revolt greatly influenced the course of Jewish history and the philosophy of the Jewish religion. Despite easing the persecution of Jews following Hadrian's death in 138 CE, the Romans barred Jews from Jerusalem, except for attendance in Tisha B'Av. Jewish messianism was abstracted and spiritualized, and rabbinical political thought became deeply cautious and conservative. .. It was also among the key events to differentiate Christianity as a religion distinct from Judaism.[22] Although Jewish Christians regarded Jesus as the Messiah and did not support Bar Kokhba,[23] they were barred from Jerusalem along with the other Jews.[24] "
Note the Wikipedia article says "It was also among the key events to differentiate Christianity as a religion distinct from Judaism". It is a significant point and it might indicate the gospel of 'Luke' was written after the Bar Kokhba revolt (or give us clues to the thinking of the writer of the gospel named after 'Luke'). Also keep in mind that 'Luke' was likely a gentile Christian instead of a Jewish Torah-keeping Christian.
Note that the Wikipedia source says it lasted from about (c.) 132 CE - 136 CE, however according to https://www.britannica.com/event/Bar-Kokhba-Revolt it lasted from 132 CE to 135 CE, for that source says the following.
"Bar Kokhba Revolt, also called Second Jewish Revolt, (132–135 ce), Jewish rebellion against Roman rule in Judaea.
... With the fall of Jerusalem and then Bethar, the fortress to the southwest of Jerusalem where Bar Kokhba was slain, the rebellion was crushed in 135. According to Christian sources, Jews were thenceforth forbidden to enter Jerusalem."
The Jewish site at https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-bar-kokhba-revolt-132-135-ce also says the war was from 132 CE to 135 CE. So which year did it end in, 135 CE or 136 CE? Did the war last for about 3.5 years?
The previously mentioned Jewish site says the following.
"In 135 C.E., Hadrian’s army besieged Bethar and on the 9th of Av, the Jewish fast day commemorating the destruction of the first and second Holy Temples, the walls of Bethar fell. After a fierce battle, every Jew in Bethar was killed. Six days passed before the Romans allowed the Jews to bury their dead.
Following the battle of Bethar, there were a few small skirmishes in the Judean Desert Caves, but the war was essentially over and Judean independence was lost. The Romans plowed Jerusalem with a yoke of oxen. Jews were sold into slavery and many were transported to Egypt. Judean settlements were not rebuilt. Jerusalem was turned into a pagan city called Aelia Capitolina and the Jews were forbidden to live there. They were permitted to enter only on the 9th of Av to mourn their losses in the revolt. Hadrian changed the country’s name from Judea to Syria Palestina."
Note that in 135 CE Jews were taken captive by Roman armies and sold into slavery and that many of them were taken to Egypt (a gentile nation) - and thus taken into captivity. That is very significant since Luke 21:24 says "will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled". Thus from 132 CE to 135 CE (or possibly even to 136 CE) the Romans (a force made of up of gentiles) trampled Jerusalem under their feet. Note that after the war ended in 135 CE (or 136 CE) that Jerusalem was turned into a pagan city, with no Jews being allowed to live there. Surely for decades after 136 CE Jerusalem was thus being trampled by gentiles and under gentile control and thus the times of gentile rule upon Jerusalem was still in progress. I think it is very possible that 'Luke' (the writer of the gospel named after Luke, regardless of whom the actual writer was), wrote the gospel after the year 132 CE. Over about the next 1800 years (after 136 CE) various gentile nations took control of Jerusalem. West Jerusalem continued to be under gentile control until Jews conquered it in 1948, and East Jerusalem continued to be under gentile control until Jews conquered it in 1967. The times of gentile control over Jerusalem finally ended in 1967, though Israel allows gentile (Arab/Palestinian) citizens of Israel to be part of the government of Israel, and though Israel might make a peace treaty in which East Jerusalem (or some suburbs of it) becomes part of an independent Palestinian state recognized by both Israel and the U.S.A.
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Can this rumor be TRUE?
by Debra Ann Romano inrumor has it there is “new light” (gag!
) regarding blood and organ transplants since a recent royal member on the wts board found reason to ok one for himself!
i mean this shit is so far removed from my life now, but hearing something so outrageous, that once cost people close to me their lives, is too unsettling to not want to know..
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Disillusioned JW
OK; thanks Debra Ann Romano for clarifying. Does the rumor name the specific person who decided to OK blood transfusions for himself?
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Can this rumor be TRUE?
by Debra Ann Romano inrumor has it there is “new light” (gag!
) regarding blood and organ transplants since a recent royal member on the wts board found reason to ok one for himself!
i mean this shit is so far removed from my life now, but hearing something so outrageous, that once cost people close to me their lives, is too unsettling to not want to know..
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Disillusioned JW
Debra Ann Romano, what did you mean by "royal" in reference to the WTS board? Are you saying that one of the WTS' board is someone who is royalty, in the sense of being a king, prince, duke, etc., of a human government? Do you instead mean someone who claims to be an "anointed" one of God, someone who claims that upon his death he will rule as a king along with Jesus Christ?
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Can this rumor be TRUE?
by Debra Ann Romano inrumor has it there is “new light” (gag!
) regarding blood and organ transplants since a recent royal member on the wts board found reason to ok one for himself!
i mean this shit is so far removed from my life now, but hearing something so outrageous, that once cost people close to me their lives, is too unsettling to not want to know..
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Disillusioned JW
I remember that back in November 2022 when I was in the hospital due to massive blood loss two JW elders (whom I had contacted) told me that it is my choice as to whether I accept a blood transfusion or not. Their wording was "it is your choice" or "it is your decision". I was stunned that they said that. I accepted the transfusions but I never told them I accepted them. I did tell them I recovered after medical treatment. My sister told me that one of the two elders said I made the right choice. Maybe the fact that such was said indicated the governing body had already changed their view and told JW elders that? Supposedly the WT had changed their view many years ago about something else (organ transplants or alternative service?) and informed elders of such, before the WT told the new view in WT publications to the rest of JWs.
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The Watchtower—Study Edition | April 2023
by RULES & REGULATIONS instudy article 19. how can we strengthen our faith in jehovah’s promise of a new world?.
17 many servants of jehovah have applied jehovah’s counsel to “keep in expectation”—even for decades.
louise, for example, began serving jehovah in 1939. she says: “at that time, i thought armageddon would come before i finished high school.
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Disillusioned JW
LongHairGal, I never adopted the attitude of selling off all my belongings and giving the proceeds to the poor. The WT has taught that JWs don't have to sell all of their belongings and don't have to make themselves poor. Some of the pronouncements in the NT (including ones attributed as teachings of Jesus Christ) I thought are to extreme and unreasonable (such as cutting off one's hand to avoid sinning) and thus even while I was an active JW I refused to adhere to those.
I have tried for decades to become rich (through stock trading), but I am not rich. About 2 years ago I briefly became somewhat rich by making a stock market profit [in green energy stocks] in 3 months of over $150,000 (thus increasing my wealth momentarily to about $200,000), but I quickly lost those riches in the stock market while my stocks later sank. I now have only about $40,000 in wealth.
My mom had two years of college (between I and my sister being born) though being a JW. My sister and I both obtained a 4-year college degree while being a JW. When I joined this website using the name/handle of "Disillusioned JW" that was about 15 years ago. I joined the site years after I became disillusioned with the WT and the JW religion, which was also years after I had ceased attending JW meetings (other than the Memorial and some assemblies) and after I began intensive independent study of the Bible. A few years after joining this website I became an atheist (as a result of my ongoing research of the Bible and due to learning certain scientific facts). After I became an atheist I wanted to change my name/handle on this site to something else but it was too late (because I ceased having the email account I had when I joined this site, thus preventing me from updating my handle).
I am POMO. According to the religion I am an inactive JW, but I don't consider myself a JW except in recognizing I have not officially left the religion. I have never been disfellowshipped nor officially disassociated from the religion.
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The Watchtower—Study Edition | April 2023
by RULES & REGULATIONS instudy article 19. how can we strengthen our faith in jehovah’s promise of a new world?.
17 many servants of jehovah have applied jehovah’s counsel to “keep in expectation”—even for decades.
louise, for example, began serving jehovah in 1939. she says: “at that time, i thought armageddon would come before i finished high school.
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Disillusioned JW
But Beth Sarim, though they kept them my mom and my sister told me they want me to avoid trying to persuade them that the JW religion is false. However years ago I did show my mother and sister page 15 of Awake! 1969 May 22.